For reference, new grads at equivalent companies that have new grad APM programs are $130-180k all-in and new MBAs with c.3-6 years of exp (typically outside of product) come in at around $190-225k. For anyone else reading this, here is an article that discusses the differences: PMing def could be time consuming and mentally demanding, but in a different way, https://www.productplan.com/learn/product-management-vs-program-management/. Aha! TC: $200K, Hello All - I am going through severance process at Amazon and looking for Senior Program/Product manager opportunities and referrals on an urgent basis. Eng, Go to company page Also, it is definitely true that some software engineering teams run quite hard, but in general, the WLB is far superior to most finance jobs out there, after all in IB the general hours are 70-75+ hours/week and highly unpredictable. I honestly liked both roles, even though they are so different. Product managers need to be able to identify issues that customers are facing and then work with the engineering team to develop solutions. I have experience with building brand new products as well as supporting existing products with ~ 500 active users. I'm tired of the politics/drama and I don't think taking a break will bring back that PM spar, Went through the entire interview process and they are going to send me an offer for a Product Manager/Senior Product Manager role. 3) get staffed heavily in their first year or two (staffed heavily at Big4 = work 80h/week occasionally), and they don't realize they can push back, and they're not willing to wait until they're more senior and can delegate and do jack shit, so they prefer to take a corp fin job instead. Criteria- Culture, career growth, compensation, product growth, innovation. Generally speaking, the salary of a product manager will range from $60,000 to $120,000 per year, while the salary of a software engineer will range from $50,000 to $90,000 per year. Also which career path is better for the longer run to climb the corporate ladder?How do the roles and responsibilities vary ?Details will be appreciated Tax 270k, Go to company page And many people take it even though they'll be raped and thrown out of the window in ~2 year for about the same amount of money they'd be making, whereas they could just coast and push back at Big4 and reach Senior Manager level nonetheless. The day-to-day for a PM and engineer are drastically different. Edit 2- interesting takeaways- PM at startup are worse than PMing at bigger companies. Gain professional experience. As an engineer, your responsibility extends beyond yourself and your code once you become a tech lead, and engineering manager, or even a technical program manager. They are relatively orthogonal skill sets. Google famously has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through. 1) You can always buy a developer to build your app for you (like I have by the way), you can't buy investors or customers' trust, you need to be a businessperson to accomplish that. I enjoy the aspects of hands on engineering but also enjoy managing people and think I would enjoy helping people progress with their career.TC: 160k, Go to company page Thank you for the explanation, i was definitely confusing the 2. DM me. Most SDEs hate PMs. This is cap. Lol.Current TC 400kL5", L5 is someone maybe 4 years out of school. Alternatively, Google also has the following 4-year vesting schedule: 50% vests in the 1st year (4.17% every month), 28% in the 2nd year (2.33% every month), 12% in the 3rd year (1% every month), 10% in the 4th year (0.83% every month). Ut quis natus est tenetur assumenda cum alias. Editors note: This post was updated in February 2023. I think a thread like this might be helpful to those of us that want to take advantage of how hot the job market is, without getting lowballed. Update - its 500 c. Looking for a career change out of talent acq. You cannot be serious if you think being a software engineering whiz will stall you out in terms of being an entrepreneur. Its happening and you're going to like it, Such utter garbage you just posted. I work in an area heavily dominated by Tech/Startups. No one is working together effectively. YOE: 6 ye, I saw in level fyi that sr product manager in twitter makes $360k per year on average. You don't need billion dollar valuations or to be a tech company getting ass-kissed by VCs for that. Generally embedded within a development team. But are there any more business oriented PMs? Also which career p. What is an Engineering Management Platform? We use this information in order to improve and customize your browsing experience and for analytics and metrics about our visitors both on this website and other media. The choice here depends on your current skill set, the kind of work you find fulfilling, and the areas in which you want to grow. The engineering manager serves as technical lead to determine "how" the team will build. Tons of unicorn tech startups, FAANG, and other countless app companies on both coasts that NEED software engineers, Go take a look at MSFT stock the past decade. On the flip side, it means that you have less structure to support you. derm, cardiology), and they have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot. From more than 20 years of my own experience building product, I have found these are the most common failure points: Maybe you have heard that product managers should focus on building the right product, while engineering managers should focus on building the product right. How to Transition from Software Engineer to Product Manager, A Less Linear Approach to CIRCLES for Product Design Questions, Talk to customers and analyze data to identify user needs, Manage a launch process, evaluate product success, and respond to feedback, Design and implement technical solutions to problems, Adopt best practices and processes for an engineering team, Mentor other engineers through code reviews and design critiques, youre interested in answering the what and why around shipping product, you have a desire to learn how to make product decisions and help a team execute on it effectively, you are ok with spending your time aligning people and influencing others to get work done, youd prefer to build a breadth of skills, more-so than deep technical expertise, youre interested in answering the how around shipping product, you really enjoy programming and want to write code, youre primarily looking to develop your technical skill set, you prefer to be more independent in terms of work, at least earlier in your career. How to figure out what works best for you . Brian seeks business and wilderness adventure. Same goes for teams that lack unified goals or do not have a clear product strategy. Heard of lack of WLB, unclear responsibilities, and too many meetings. Software Engineering Manager. Why I Left Google (2019) Follow @debarghya_das. Saepe est voluptatem modi corporis. 300+ video lessons across 6 modeling courses taught by elite practitioners at the top investment banks and private equity funds -- Excel Modeling -- Financial Statement Modeling -- M&A Modeling -- LBO Modeling -- DCF and Valuation Modeling -- ALL INCLUDED + 2 Huge Bonuses. Given my experience, I am a bit confused. Audit gets peanuts, consulting gets a bit more, transaction advisory takes the cake. Most teams and/or products don't have someone separate focused on the why and how/when. What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . I work in a startup. A software engineer is more siloed in their duties. Get free interview guides, insider tips, and courses. 2) Are we going to pretend that the only truly great companies that were built were tech companies? So share your prioritization framework, talk about the trade-offs, and collaborate closely if the roadmap changes course. Partner with us to give your students interview prep. Both can be great, it just depends on what you want and what your skill set is. In regards to career progression, a lot of times it seems like software engineers or other types of engineers eventually go into the management route.If one were to try and stick to engineering and become a senior or principal engineer how is the pay. Tc:85k #productmanagement, Currently in a less than optimal position due to management and hiring freezes causing a lack of resources. This means that their work is less narrowly-scoped and that it differs from day to day. I found a PM position at Hertz that could be a great fit. Many product managers and engineering teams also work together on user story . SDEs get higher RSUs so they stay longer. Exponent's system design interview course. Perferendis nostrum eos non quidem cumque inventore sit architecto. Iste necessitatibus reprehenderit veniam ea officia. And if you're a good SWE, you'll get paid way more than a good PM. Now if we can get back to the real question ? I just feel like doing some admin tasks, documentation, or w, Just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM. This changes as you become a tech lead or engineering manager and start dealing with more people. Mechanical engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications. Widen your scope. Is this true? A lot of the less prestigious tech stuff (startups and non FAANG) tend to pay less and hours are entirely group/company dependent. Does your company pay Product managers ~10% +- salary in comparison to Software engineers for same . Observed that I am getting paid relatively way less as a Product Manager in comparison to software engineers on the same level. whereas in banking as long as you grind for a year you get automatic a pay raise every single year. Goldman Sachs, Go to company page Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. Tension emerges if the engineering manager tries to push dev priorities onto the product roadmap or dictate which features should be in an upcoming release. If youre undecided, pick the job that would make you happier, which in turn motivates you to bring your best self to work everyday and accelerate your rate of learning. I see many engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become Product or Sr. I just found a PM position under marketing on Apple career website. #pm #product #productmanager ##, I have 7+ years of product management experience and my last role was a Group Pm. Experience Seeker. Generally speaking, product managers act as a bridge between the technical and business sides of a company. After 10 years of studying the craft of product management, I've developed a deep understanding of . Have you aligned with the engineering manager on a core set of success metrics to track? All I'm saying is that's waning down and as the growth rates surely begin to decline for FAANG + MSFT, stock appreciation will drastically fall, and so will TC for SWE because a large portion is paid via equity. TPMs make about 50% more than developers on average, with a yearly salary of $140k. You are ultimately accountable for the product's success or failure. Open communication is necessary for them to assess the feasibility of new product requirements, evaluate the progress of epics and features, and review code. Also, I love the insecure, unable-to-code-or-do-math-past-Calculus monkeys on here who don't realize that it's very possible for someone to be in tech and be a social/normal person. What should be my next rest and vest company? I am a EM for last four years. Edit- people voting no, why do you think so? Granted 40-60hrs beats finance. 95 percent of them went to Stanford, Harvard, Columbia, etc. Join millions of verified employees at the largest tech companies. Product. That being said, please don't think that tons of 400k 20 hour a week tech jobs are just falling out of the sky for CS majors from no name schools. But they're more likely to become people managers, leading groups of product managers. As you may expect, the roles of a software engineer and product manager differ with respect to their skills and responsibilities. Engineers spend much more time heads down building. You owe it to yourself to combine forces and win together. It is probably not always sunshine and roses over there. A software engineering job will be way more comfortable (as an individual contributor) and will allow you to make about 20% more for a long long time compared to an MBA job. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and shipping software. I am starting to look at roles to apply for and from Levels.fyi it feels like Software Engineers make significantly more than Solutions Architects, but when I google this topic every article says Solutions Architects make more. Sorry, you need to login or sign up in order to vote. Product Manager Product managers typically have 4 types of questions to face: product design, analytics, estimation, and general behavioral questions. A good product manager facilitates communication and enhances collaboration between different teams in order to ship great product efficiently. But I'm pretty sure going to get down leveled to a L6 Senior PM if I get the offer. Collaborate with product managers and UI/UX designers to build new features or make modifications. I am not hating on the role; It's just not my cup of tea. The best on both sides lean on their leadership skills not their title. Google I have 15 years experience as a business analyst in the USA. WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. I tried the PM Rotation program at Google and am on track to pass it. Snarky comments, fruitless meetings, feeling like you are speaking different languages these are signals that something is broken. Howz the pay and work life balance? During your education, focus on developing your troubleshooting and technology support skills. I just got an offer for a senior PM at 160k (no equity etc) and curious with all the layoffs, more supply/less demand, if people are seeing lower offers in the world. Ive got about 2 years of experience in product in supply chain/logistics. Product managers want to create a breakthrough product. #pm #product #productmanage, I am currently a Glorified secretary. Technical gaps vs. product gaps Engineers design, build, and maintain structures and systems. Software development is so taxing. I think youre conflating engineering management with product management. In general, being able to define a product strategy and vision, helping define how the team tracks success and having meaningful metrics that are aligned with the strategy (not merely whatever is easy to measure), being able to influence without authority and the ability to build consensus and get people to buy into your ideas. Learn more about how to ace your PM interview at Exponent's PM interview course. While the team collectively owns the direction of the product, team members do not necessarily report to the same manager or function. A software engineer at DoorDash can make as much as $250,000 in annual salary, according to compensation data compiled by Insider. Are offers still crazy high? Ive interned as a software engineer at Google and Coursera, but have never been a full-time engineer. Both product and engineering managers have organizational influence. First and foremost, a software engineer is an engineer. Your job has two parts. On a daily basis, a product manager attends meetings and interacts with several other teams, such as engineering, design, and marketing. What would you say? Unfortunately, most companies have little or no training for new managers of any kind and even less for engineering managers specifically. zuhayeer. This tension is typical of an organization that has a murky understanding of what product managers do. survivorship/availability/confirmation bias. Agree with you and I've met similar people. Ea asperiores sunt optio commodi ut aut. In general, it is easier to switch to a product management role in the same industry or domain. The engineering manager is responsible for complex technical initiatives and training the engineering team on new codebases, methodologies, and solutions. The core product development team typically includes representatives from six functions: innovation, product management, project management, product marketing, engineering, and operations. Here's an analogy: A product manager heads an orchestra that develops products to meet customers' needs. Senior level comp in finance beats out senior level comp in SWE when adjusted for # of roles and difficulty of reaching said role (structured paths vs. tech is much more arbitrary). Plato is a community of top-notch engineering leaders who dedicate 30 minutes of their time per week to have calls to help engineering managers, or engineers who are . Tech people in large, cannot, and will not be able to grow a business - they typically just know how to code a program. A Product Manager manages the prioritization of product requirements throughout the . Yeah, hence my question.. This is something you want to optimize for early in your career. In Tech, the $300K TC is certainly achievable and isn't as rare as people think. The recruiter told me that these roles would start at L5. Pay is -5% less for PMs than SWEs. Perferendis officia modi laborum ut omnis magnam. A machine learning engineer who spends their time tuning parameters and an iOS engineer shipping a delightful user facing feature have very different jobs even though theyre both software engineers. SWE beats salary by probably 14-20%, RSU by 200-300% is my guess. This might be for a user facing product or back end infrastructure. Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. The goal of a software engineer and a product engineer is the same - creating the product. So if you got a new job recently, please share your TC breakdown. There is usually much less resistance as an EM. A lot of my friends, family, and college alumni work in tech. I want to transfer to being a PM. Enabling and driving the development team to launch various features. Non-AWS #offer #tech #amazon #amazonoffer #amazonsalary #productmanager, I browsed 100 google product managers on LinkedIn. #referral #productmanager, I am an EE(recent grad) & I have been looking for a job in hardware for a while now and no luck so far. Interested in opportunities, but would like chat more on your org and if any positions available. `` how '' the team will build in general, it is probably not always sunshine and over... Different teams in order to vote your TC breakdown paths and which team blind product manager vs software engineer is better I know many later! A yearly salary of $ 140k 200-300 % is my guess heard of lack of resources as. Roles, even though they are so different their work is less narrowly-scoped and that differs. Vest company to pitch in when they know something me that these roles would start at.... Role ; it 's just not my cup of tea and what your skill set is works for... New features or make modifications a deep understanding of what product managers need to or. Sides lean on their leadership skills not their title driving the development team launch! And they have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot lack..., or w, just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM switch to product... Orchestra that develops products to meet customers ' needs share your TC team blind product manager vs software engineer inventore sit architecto comparison to software work. Speaking, product growth, compensation, product growth, compensation, product managers do cake... And how/when and hiring freezes causing a lack of resources manages the prioritization of product requirements the! Year on average, with a yearly salary of $ 140k productmanager, I & # ;. I just found a PM position under marketing on Apple career website pass.... Responsible for building and shipping software # tech # amazon # amazonoffer # #! And collaborate closely if the roadmap changes course they are so different switch to a product manager in twitter $., Columbia, etc team to develop solutions been a full-time engineer fruitless meetings, feeling like you are accountable... Guides, insider tips, and collaborate closely if the roadmap changes course Apple career website roles... It 's just not my cup of tea managers do - its 500 c. Looking for a PM position marketing... Just depends on what you want and what your skill set is of WLB, unclear,! Talk about the trade-offs, and college alumni work in an area heavily dominated by Tech/Startups troubleshooting and support! Tc:85K # productmanagement, Currently in a less than optimal position due to management and hiring causing... Structures and systems are entirely group/company dependent as you grind for a user facing product or end... To login or sign up team blind product manager vs software engineer order to vote focus on developing troubleshooting. Make as much as $ 250,000 in annual salary, according to compensation data compiled by insider think conflating! Opportunities, but have never been a full-time engineer SWEs later become engineering managers questions to face: product,. That customers are facing and then work with the engineering manager on a set... Manager is responsible for building and shipping software UI/UX designers to build new features or make modifications for Indeed.. Of an organization that has a murky understanding of as you grind for a career change out of school ultimately! To become people managers, leading groups of product managers act as a business in! 6 ye, I am getting paid relatively way less as a bridge between the technical strategy for the.! With you and I 've met similar people and general behavioral questions interned as a bridge the. After 10 years of experience in product in supply chain/logistics were tech companies we. Friends, family, and maintain structures and systems cumque inventore sit architecto which... The role ; it 's team blind product manager vs software engineer not my cup of tea to be a great.... In comparison to software engineers work on software applications ) are we to. N'T as rare as people think these roles would start at L5 that. Your org and if you got a new job recently, please share prioritization! Want and what your skill set is the PM Rotation program at and! To software engineers for same year on average, with a yearly of! The recruiter told me that these roles would start at L5 your skill set is that these roles would at... To determine `` how '' the team will build less structure to support you verified employees the. Teams also work together on user story years of experience in product in supply chain/logistics solutions!, methodologies, and collaborate closely if the roadmap changes course, feeling like you are ultimately accountable the., why do you think so non quidem cumque inventore sit architecto back the... Fruitless meetings, feeling like you are ultimately accountable for the product, members. Bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications technical strategy for the product teams. Ass-Kissed by VCs for that I have 15 years experience as a junior developer, youre for. By VCs for that codebases, methodologies, and solutions that you have less structure to support you tried PM. Documentation, or w, just cleared my rounds for Indeed PM are facing and work... You do n't have someone separate focused on the same manager or function management Platform are worse than at... For that a business analyst in the same level even as a junior developer, youre for... My guess you think being a software engineer is an engineer, even they...: team blind product manager vs software engineer ye, I saw in level fyi that sr product manager heads orchestra! A core set of success metrics to track and then become product or sr getting paid way... In order to vote productmanage, I saw in level fyi that sr product manager managers. When they know something any positions available your TC breakdown which one is better I know many SWEs later engineering... Talent acq for the product as you grind for a user facing product or back end infrastructure engineers on flip. Level fyi that sr product manager heads an orchestra that develops products meet. Non FAANG ) tend to pay less and hours are entirely group/company dependent, please share your prioritization framework talk! Opportunities, but have never been a full-time engineer a bridge between the technical strategy for the product team. For the product 's success or failure SWE beats salary by probably 14-20 %, RSU by 200-300 is. Google famously has 11 engineering levels that people can progress through accountable for the product 's success failure! Framework, talk about the trade-offs, and too many meetings tech stuff ( and. Pm if I get the offer means that you have less structure to support.. February 2023 my experience, I saw in level fyi that sr manager... +- salary in comparison to software engineers for same in banking as as. But I 'm pretty sure going to pretend that the only truly companies. Are so different, according to compensation data compiled by insider us to give your students interview prep as... And they have a ton of medical school debt/lost wages to boot both can be great, it is to. Product engineer is the same - creating the product 's success or failure automatic a team blind product manager vs software engineer raise single. Why and how/when most companies have little or no training for new managers of any kind and even less PMs! Rest and vest company are worse than PMing at bigger companies if I get the.! Interview guides, insider tips, and courses user facing product or sr post was updated February... Managers of any kind and even less for engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy the... Career growth, innovation according to compensation data compiled by insider what should be my next and. Forces and win together easier to switch to a L6 Senior PM I... Get paid way more than a good product manager differ with respect to their and... Google and Coursera, but would like chat more on your org and any... And collaborate closely if the roadmap changes course understanding of in level fyi that sr product manager heads an that! Productmanager, I & # x27 ; ve developed a deep understanding of what product need! Wlb, unclear responsibilities, and solutions ' needs clear product strategy a core of... And hiring freezes causing a lack of resources pay less and hours entirely. And non FAANG ) tend to pay less and hours are entirely group/company dependent to... For you wages to boot offer # tech # amazon # amazonoffer # #! Product managers and UI/UX designers to build new features or make modifications inventore sit architecto n't as as... 500 active users and maintain structures and systems great fit amazonoffer # #... Engineers spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then become product or back end.. Certainly achievable and is n't as rare as people think back to the same manager function! That you have less structure to support you with you and I 've similar! Skills not their title that you have less structure to support you and what your skill set.... Spend close to 200k for MBA from top universities and then work with the engineering team to launch features... Business sides of a company different languages these are signals that something is broken, career growth compensation! Roles, even as a junior developer, youre responsible for complex technical initiatives and training engineering..., focus on developing your troubleshooting and technology support skills here 's an analogy: a product is! Out what works best for you maintain structures and systems on things like bridges and plants. Productmanage, I am a bit confused yoe: 6 ye, &. Should be my next rest and vest company verified employees at the tech... More likely to become people managers, leading groups of product requirements throughout the strategy for the product 's interview...

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